So far it seems Black Templar Space Marine is a single class. I don't really like that.


I would have preferred having Tactical, Devastator and Assault Marines as separate classes. I think. Even though the Black Templars don't call them like that.


What do you guys think?

If Space Marines were a faction then yes... devastator and assault squads are more of an invention for the TTG tactica, generally you have squads and then a assault or devastator marines. The exception to this rule are the scout and terminator squads. Either way, chill, Space Marines can wield more than one weapon unlike in the TTG.

David Adams, creative director, called the BTSM "(like a) warrior class for the Imperium.". [David Adams Interview w/ GamesReactor ~ 2010 E3]

Well, actually...

I know that a Devastator/Havoc Squad is a squad of 10 Marines of which only 4 have heavy weapons and the rest are armed with Bolters. Black Templars don't even have Devastator squads but have heavy weapons used by any Initiates... just like Tactical squads may use up to two heavy weapons and not just special weapons like Plasmaguns and Flamethrowers. Now, not to bla-bla-bla too much...

I can imagine a single marine receiving at least basic training in close combat and use of all weapons available be they heavy or not ( or at least some). It would also make sense that certain marines specialize in certain types of warfare even before they get into the 1st Company and likely ( based on which Chapter they're in) chose to be either Vanguard or Sternguard Veterans.

For a MMO they could have gone both ways. Having a single marine class is actual more quaint as you don't have to level three different characters to experience all three types of marines. I reckon.

I was more worried about the Eldar, to be honest.

1) I desperately want them to be in the game. Sort of, I wouldn't fuck somebody for it... but, you know.

2) How would their classes work like if they'll go this way?

Translate Space Marine "classes" to Eldar. Howling Banshee ( or Stinging No-Boob) for close combat, Dire Avenger for tactical or w/e and Dark Reaper for heavy support.

Now, if they were separate classes it would work.

If they were a single class it may somehow kind of work.

Like, if the class was called Aspect Warrior and you "respec" to a different Aspect. Alright, that wouldn't be all that terrible... not even terrible terrible gruesome murder to fluff. Just kind of.

Certain Eldar do walk more warrior paths than one. They're called Autarchs and not they're not really particularly common.

So, what's more important? Fluff of game mechanics?


Solution: No Eldar in DMO.


There, talking about Eldar in a SM sub-forum.

Eldar have strict archetype regimens. The fluff was made to fit the nature of the table top class, units are meant to excel at one thing but fail at everything else.

Dark Millennium really doesn't have to be overwhelmingly realistic. If it was factions would have a different number of factions, Eldar with 8(+), Space Marines 3, Orks 2, Khornite Chaos 4, ect. Factions have different forms of military.

B'sides. Seeing a 40% Banshee Eldar battleforce would be hardly canonical but it wouldn't be hurtful to the mmo.

even if they have different space marine types devestators will most likely not appear as a class due to fluff

I'm not exactly supportive of a system where every race has an equal number of class types with an equal rank system. Because this is a game based on multiple completely unique factions, I think they should stick with that uniqueness as well as possible without treading on the playability too much.

After all, if all those races can put up a good fight with what they've got in the fluff, they should definitely be able to do the same in a game. As long as there aren't too many glaring imbalances, the players will likely balance it naturally. Anything else seems forced.

First of all, you've got it very wrong if you think factions in warhammer are completely unique. They are different enough, but you have tons of similarities. Tons and tons. Tons and tons and tons.

Just look at Chaos and the Imperium. Eldar and Dark Eldar. Orks compared to the Imperium.


Other than that... a class system where every race has an equal number of class types? Well, who was talking about that?

I was not talking about all class types here. Just Space Marines and a couple of possible Eldar classes ( or just one). Some are likely going to be different. A Banshee, for example, would probably not fit the exact same role as a SM. Not easily anyway. In fact, Eldar don't have any super-heavy infantry ( other than Wraithguards, kinda...).

But some things are also bound to be similar. Every race just simply has to have at least the basic types of classes like something for close combat, something for ranged combat, support classes of some kind ( which can be different from each other but still can't be too different in their usefulness).

That a Dark Reaper pretty much fills the same niche as an Devastator Marine ( or simply one with a Heavy Bolter or some other heavy weapon other than a Melta)... and that a Havoc Marine basically is the same as an Devastator Marine ( other than one weapon choice)... and a Ork Loota too... anyway, those are just facts and could very well be used in this MMO.

Classes can be different from each other while filling the same role. Races can have some unique stuff... but not all of it.


I mean, do you truly expect Eldar, Chaos and Orks not to have Psykers just as the Imperium does?

Bleh, I have to stop using words like "completely."

I didn't mean to say that each race has nothing the other races have. They all have a pretty basic chain of command, they all have melee, they all have ranged, etc.

My worry is we'll load up the game for the first time, log in, and be faced with choosing a faction/race that is relatively equal to every other. In a given race, I don't want to see Melee 1, Melee 2, Ranged 1, Ranged 2, Psyker 1, Utility 1, and then go to the next race, and see the same exact configuration. And worse, get into the game with a character and find out my Melee 1 is pretty much an exact copy of Melee 1 from a different race, with different colors and animations. Why should a Gnome warrior in World of Warcraft play exactly the same as an Orc? Logically, he'd be forced to play more intelligently and be a bit sneakier simply because he quite obviously does not have the same brute strength an Orc would possess.

I of course expect a given melee character to have basic melee attacks, mitigation, etc, but the play style should definitely be different enough that if the animations and graphics were taken out, you'd still know which race you were playing.



That's why I didn't quote anyone.

Could be done like that. Then it could be good or bad. Could be done completely differently. Could still be either good or bad. I don't know.

Ok, thing is, completely different things are bad for balance. They make it harder to balance it and then devs usually fail. It has it's merits though, it has great chances to be much more exciting.

WAR, for example... you should probably try out. xD Free trial, unlimited duration.

There they had 2 sides and 3 races. Each race had 1 class filling 4 archetypes ( Tank, Healer, Melee, Ranged). Boring? Maybe, it gets a bit better though. Each good race has it's own unique class ( completely different, most quite interesting) for each of the 4 archetypes and also it's evil counterpart ( for balance) which was still slightly different ( for lols, bad for balance).

That sounds still a bit less than what you seem to have in mind. And it was a nightmare to balance. Now, the question is...

Is balance more important than having interesting differences between sides?

Shit, I don't know.


I'd probably go for some sort of balance between having balanced counterparts and being unique in their own right. I reckon.

What do you think?

If we (as in, you and I) are compromising and focusing more on the overall strategy of the field to make up for a lower amount of abilities (which I'm fine with to an extent), then balancing the abilities becomes much less difficult. A given game might have 20 abilities per class at max level, all of which require balancing against all other abilities for all other classes. But if we throw in things like generic consumables that everyone has a version of, as well as ideas like active mitigation, cover, various bullets, etc which everyone, regardless of class/race/faction has access to, and then have something like only 10 or 12 unique abilities per class, then it becomes much easier to balance against everything else.

With that said, I don't necessarily agree with a completely hands-on approach to balance. You take a game like WoW with its only nine classes and you'll notice that they refuse to balance against anything but semi-large to large battles. And then you have situations like Mages able to completely halt an entire team in a map where mobility is key, making them insanely overpowered on that map.

Balance is something to strive for, but history has shown that "balance nightmares" are a way of MMOs, and aiming for perfect balance between even a small amount of classes has proven to be nearly impossible. There are just too many variables, even aside from class abilities, to even begin to cover.