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 Post subject: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:00 pm 
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One of the popular conventions of the sandbox mmo genre is the open world dungeon. A dungeon that contains group based content that anyone can enter and compete for mobs and boss attempts. While this type of play has its followers, the drawbacks are pretty substantial. (ganking, griefing, running trains, etc.)

In Warhammer online with the introduction of Temple of the Vulture Lord they introduced invasions into those instances where your group could be attacked by a group from the opposite faction. While this was interesting, it was fraught with problems and generally was a waste of time for the originators of the instance who were interested in pve versus pvp.

What I propose is a streamlining of the concept to basically allow A group from both factions in a given instance. These could be 2 pve groups out to down bosses or a mix of pve/pvp groups looking for a fight. By throttling the participants to only 2 groups, you would do away with some of the traffic problems that true open world dungeons suffer from. Dungeons would need to be sprawling and should ideally have multiple entrances/respawn points so that the invading group isn't automatically 'behind' the original instance group. Necron catacombs or a space hulk would be an excellent candidate for this type of instance, and were they to be randomly generated, with say 3 to 5 of a dozen of so randomly spawned bosses per instance this would be ideal. Make all the bosses share one massive loot table so that any given boss could generate any potential loot rewards and you have an interesting departure from the normal instanced dungeon crawl.

I think that the added layer of competition from the opposite faction would increase the replayablility of the dungeons while adding an element of Chaos, in the random sense. Having to race through trash to down bosses before the opposite faction or to stake your claim before they come and spoil the fun would be very much in the spirit of 40K, in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:56 pm 
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I like the idea of having to compete over the loot in a dungeon with a team from the opposing faction. However, it has to be more than just running through trash to get to the bosses the fastest. There has to be multiple tunnels/roads that leads to the same, larger areas, to prevent one team from just setting up an ambush, killing off the other team and then have free reign, or have to deal with the other team running up behind them again. Scouts has to be a big part of it... scouts that can locate the other team, relay information and then setup a tactic based on that information. And that requiers certain abilities from some classes (cloaking to bypass mobs, for instance). Certain game mechanics has to be in place, not to leave everything up to chance... the detection of said scouts for instance. The other team has have the ability to detect a cloaked scout by other means than luck and chance.
Basically, if it's not an element of the game governed by skill, most players will most likely begin to dislike it.

These are just a few points I have about it. But like I said... I really like the concept of it, and I'm all for it... it's very much in the spirit of 40K.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:20 am 
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Scouting could turn out to be a major part of gameplay in a randomly generated dungeon that could potentially be invaded by the opposite faction. I think I'd rather the scouting role go to the player with the Auspex/sensorium item rather than being a class ability. If the dungeon were randomly generated, this could also serve as a mapping mechanic since you wouldn't know exactly what the dungeon looked like when you entered it. I'm envisioning something fairly basic, like the motion tracker devices used in the movie "Aliens".

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:44 am 
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The cloaking ability was merely an example.. the exact method of scouting can obviously be something different. The important part is that scouting (and mapping, like you said, which is a good idea) is possible. However, I do believe that cloaking, whether it be from an item or an ability, turns up the suspense in the dungeon. It forces both teams to devote one player to "scan", or in some manner detect enemy scouts throughout the dungeon. Maybe a cloaked scout can't shoot with his main weapon (or at least not without breaking stealth), but he can lay out mines and booby traps in the enemies path, traps that also needs to be detected in some way. Maybe here the tracking device can be of use... only it's not a tracking device, it detects hidden mines. So one player has to scan for scouts while one detects traps, and at the same time fight of trash mobs, AND have your own scout out looking for the enemy team, so you have a tactic ready for when you inevitably have to fight them as well.

Maybe I'm making this overly complicated... In my head I really want a challenge. Something that requieres your full attention, and at the same time creates suspense. If I had my way, you wouldn't be able to respawn and rejoin your team mates if you die in the dungeon. If some sort of resurrection or revival is possible by one your team mates, that would be allowed... but once you die you're out, leaving your team weaker.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:57 am 
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I'm all for the mines/booby trap idea, that would be awesome. I'd also like to see and auto-enrage on bosses to keep cross realmers from double teaming bosses. Co-op groups from opposite factions would be against the spirit of the dungeons and would have to be heavily discouraged and an auto-enrage and random hate against all players withing the boss encounter area would go a long way to making that kind of munchkin gameplay impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:47 am 
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Yeah that is true. Maybe even a system that rewards the team that has the most enemy combatant kills in the dungeon. Maybe reward them with some sort of valuable consumable, crafting materials for example, for killing 2/4/6/whole enemy team (depending on the number of players allowed in one squad).
Rewards often leads to ways to exploit the system though, so if I got my way, there would also be some sort of penalty for the team that stays passive and/or loses... it's harsh, but at least that way no one will want to play that way. And if the rewards for playing the dungeon weighs just as heavy, people will still play them I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:52 am 

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Sabot wrote:
Maybe I'm making this overly complicated... In my head I really want a challenge. Something that requieres your full attention, and at the same time creates suspense. If I had my way, you wouldn't be able to respawn and rejoin your team mates if you die in the dungeon. If some sort of resurrection or revival is possible by one your team mates, that would be allowed... but once you die you're out, leaving your team weaker.


YES! My biggest pet peeve is when people are only half paying attention, don't know where anything is, and are basicly clueless yet don't really suffer for it. I always played on PvP servers, not because I like to cause grief, but for the challenge! I hope there are open world dungeons as well as instanced pvp/pve dungeons. While it can be irritating if you cannot accomplish a PvE goal due to being assulted, there is always later. And the chance of being assaulted keeps you on your toes!


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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:20 am 
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I think the reason why a lot of people are against that idea is not because they dislike pvp, it is fun and is what I will be doing mostly, but that the idea that at any time you could be killed, just cause, is kind of infuriating and game breaking. If there was no lore/mission reason why a Khorne Beserker just decapitated you and then penetrated it through the ocular cavity it seems out of place.

Kind of a lame example, but it would be like if you were just killing ten rats, and then a Daemon Prince landed next to you and shot you with his awesome Chaos eye lazors. Understandably, if you are in a pvp server, you should always be on the look out. But if there was no real reason besides just seeing you while walking past and deciding to end your life, it just kind of leaves a nasty taste in your mouth.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:40 am 
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jmpatter wrote:
I think the reason why a lot of people are against that idea is not because they dislike pvp, it is fun and is what I will be doing mostly, but that the idea that at any time you could be killed, just cause, is kind of infuriating and game breaking. If there was no lore/mission reason why a Khorne Beserker just decapitated you and then penetrated it through the ocular cavity it seems out of place.

Kind of a lame example, but it would be like if you were just killing ten rats, and then a Daemon Prince landed next to you and shot you with his awesome Chaos eye lazors. Understandably, if you are in a pvp server, you should always be on the look out. But if there was no real reason besides just seeing you while walking past and deciding to end your life, it just kind of leaves a nasty taste in your mouth.
Creating a reason for both factions to want to be in the dungeon is easy. There could be special pvp rewards associated with fighting within the dungeons or some form of currency/resource that only drops from the dungeon bosses, but can be looted off of killed players and doesn't bind to a character until they leave the instance.

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 Post subject: Re: Almost open world dungeons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:35 am 
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I hate to rain on any parades... because I'm really on your guys side of the fence on this. But we have to ask a big question. What's going to make DMO hugely successful? Ease of play. It's as easy as that. If we want our game to be a huge hit that derails WoW... it's gotta be easy mode guys. There has to be signifigant challenges that require a solid PvE raid community and there has to be an abundance of easy/solo/group stuff to do. The things you're describing are going to send people running away to games that don't have such extreme consequences.

So, here's my idea. The whole sector is a battlefield with minor faction areas that are safe zones for newbie leveling and merchant type activities. The rest of the sector is a constantly shifting war zone with tactical contol points that determine area dominance. Each area has a major defining tactical advantage such as Spaceports, Manufactorum, Logistics Areas, ect... These "strategic" control points give your faction PvP & PvE advantages when held. They also weigh into a score for faction dominance of regions. If a faction controls a region... they have access to the region's Rare Encounter Raid Dungeon. This instance will have super rare drops that might take a hundred attempts to get what you're looking for. Additionally, if you log your toon inside you stay inside regardless of faction control. This will create a need for factions to "clear" the instance of all enemies to ensure they're not interfered with. Also, while your raiding, you could lose control and get attacked after a period of time while raiding making a lookout and rearguard necessary. This would aslo promote speed clearing in order to get it done before you can get ganked.

Each area would additionally have some standardized tactical control points that would be the same as other areas in order to facilitate strategic gameplay. Each area would have a Field Hospital that when held granted MEDEVAC teleport to designated port points within the area. There would be an Airfield that granted periodic air support to the owning faction. Also there would be a Training facility that allowed for larger ammounts of NPC troops at their defensice positions. Then, there would be a Supply Depot that allowed for additional ground vehicle support at defensice positions and also more roving patrols.

Now, when each single tactical control point is held, an access point is oppenned to 1 of 4 possible entrances to the Dungeon. The holding faction has access to 1/5 of the dungeon and can farm anything in that area. The area should include some lesser bosses for minor loot that may be useful to intermediate gear templates. To access the main raid boss area the faction must control all four tactical points and the area strategic point... ie. The Starport. Then they can go into the main raid. Once conrolled, the raid dungeon cannot be owned by the other faction for 1 hour.

Guilds that claim tactical control points can only own 1 tactical or strategic points. Guilds would earn reputation for a claim. The guild would earn morale points for holding the point over time. Reputation points would go towards guild rank, leveling, and access to guild missions from their factions sector commander. Morale points would go towards purchasing guild perk items, abilities, and fortress/flagship upgrades. This would give guild a reason to compete for control of points. Obviously strategic points would give more rewards. If all the strategic points are held and another guild wants one... this opens the door for deception and betrayal. A guild might actually help the other faction so they can get the Strategic point.

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